I had been busy with exams recently sir so I am going through some of these messages a little late.
I wanted to ask whether these opacities you mentioned were significantly indistinguishable as pneumonia vs edema on the imaging itself?
[03/06, 17:00] cm: No in imaging they would simply be labelled as consolidation
[03/06, 17:13] cm: Take a look at this patient's serial chest x-rays and one HRCT showing his loculated pleural effusion and consolidation that eventually vanished one day after few days of admission and recovery from heart failure which is when we became sure that it wasn't pneumonia but pulmonary edema👇
[03/06, 18:04] Dhu1 Pulmonary Edema: Quite interesting sir, this xray from the case most certainly does not seem like it could be pulmonary edema.
[03/06, 18:06] Dhu1 Pulmonary Edema: But why would pulmonary edema due to heart failure be restricted to the right upper lobe as it appears to be, instead of being more uniformly bilateral?
[03/06, 19:43] cm: Exactly! These kind of loculations due to pulmonary edema are far more common than text books know!
Text books may teach about phantom tumor as a short note, which is what this phenomenon is and we used to think it's relatively rare when we started gradually seeing it in practice till it's become so very common as to make us believe that it's much more common than pneumonia!
So learning points here are:
1) (Known previously) Phantom tumor is a pulmonary edema with loculated pleural effusion that is known to disappear rapidly in chest X-ray with diuresis
2) It's actually much more common than pneumonia if one has a high index of suspicion for all patients with rapidly resolving pneumonias
3) Why pulmonary edema gets sometimes (and for us often) in this peculiar loculated manner is what needs more elucidation with pathophysiological models
[03/06, 19:51] cm: Yes but a pneumonia can't vanish overnight!
The sharp margin of the displaced pleural fissure that you may notice in this and the other serial chest x-rays is the one indicative of the loculated pleural effusion.
Again in the past Phantom tumors were probably termed for loculated pleural effusions due to heart failure although it's logical that they would also have had alveolar edema? @Meta AI
[03/06, 19:51] Meta AI: You're right, pneumonia typically doesn't resolve that quickly. The sharp margin of the displaced pleural fissure is indeed indicative of a loculated pleural effusion. And yeah, "phantom tumors" was a term used to describe loculated pleural effusions in heart failure patients, which likely had accompanying alveolar edema. It's interesting how terminology and understanding of these conditions have evolved over time. Are you looking into the specifics of how heart failure can manifest in chest x-rays?
[03/06, 19:51]cm: @Meta AI alright share the specifics
[03/06, 19:51] Meta AI: Heart failure can manifest in chest x-rays in several ways, including:
1. Cardiomegaly (enlarged cardiac silhouette)
2. Pulmonary venous hypertension (distension of upper lobe veins)
3. Kerley B lines (short, horizontal lines at lung periphery)
4. Perihilar batwing opacities (alveolar edema)
5. Pleural effusions (often bilateral and loculated)
Loculated pleural effusions, like the one you mentioned, can mimic masses or "phantom tumors" on x-ray. Serial chest x-rays can help track changes and response to treatment.
Would you like more details on these findings or their implications?
[03/06, 19:52]cm: @Meta AI strange that text books never make this mention about their being manifest as consolidation!
[03/06, 19:52] Meta AI: Textbooks often focus on classic presentations, but heart failure can indeed manifest in various ways, including consolidation-like patterns on chest x-rays. This can be due to pulmonary edema or hemorrhage. Some cases might show atypical patterns, making diagnosis more challenging.
In clinical practice, radiologists and clinicians consider the entire clinical picture, including patient history, symptoms, and lab results, to interpret x-ray findings accurately.
Are you finding that your clinical experience is diverging from textbook descriptions, or are you preparing for exams and wanting to bridge that gap?
[03/06, 20:25]cm: @Meta AI here's something interesting around this, although not representative of a single chest X-ray for single patient findings but rather findings from a study utilising many chest X-rays for a single patient from different directions inside a tubular body shaped electro mechanical contraption aka CT scan and I quote from that paper 👇
"There was no difference of ground glass opacity (GGO), consolidation, crazy paving pattern, lobes affected and septal thickening between heart failure and pneumonia. However, less rounded morphology (8.3% vs. 67%, p=0.003), more peribronchovascular thickening (75% vs. 33%, p=0.041) and fissural thickening (33% vs. 0%, p=0.028), less peripheral distribution (33% vs. 92%, p=0.003) were found in heart failure group than that in pneumonia."
[03/06, 20:25] Meta AI: That's fascinating! The study you mentioned highlights the complexities of differentiating between heart failure and pneumonia using CT scans. The findings suggest that certain radiological features, such as peribronchovascular thickening and fissural thickening, are more common in heart failure, while rounded morphology and peripheral distribution are more characteristic of pneumonia.
The overlap in features like ground glass opacity, consolidation, and crazy paving pattern between the two conditions underscores the importance of clinical correlation and careful interpretation of imaging findings.
Did you find any other interesting studies or insights that might help in distinguishing between cardiogenic and infectious pulmonary edema?
[03/06, 21:19] Dhu1 Pulmonary Edema: Precisely sir, the sharp demarcation at the right horizontal fissure is very suggestive of localized consolidation.
[03/06, 21:23] Dhu1 Pulmonary Edema: As for point 3 I do indeed think it's very curious how something like this might come to occur.
How common would this be? Perhaps something that could warrant a narrative/literature review sir? I will read up and think about what could be causing this.
[03/06, 21:45]cm: More sharper due to a loculated pleural effusion
[03/06, 21:47]cm: To answer the commonality question I had shared the quote from the link earlier which I am pasting here again 👇
@Meta AI here's something interesting around this, although not representative of a single chest X-ray for single patient findings but rather findings from a study utilising many chest X-rays for a single patient from different directions inside a tubular body shaped electro mechanical contraption aka CT scan and I quote from that paper 👇
"There was no difference of ground glass opacity (GGO), consolidation, crazy paving pattern, lobes affected and septal thickening between heart failure and pneumonia. However, less rounded morphology (8.3% vs. 67%, p=0.003), more peribronchovascular thickening (75% vs. 33%, p=0.041) and fissural thickening (33% vs. 0%, p=0.028), less peripheral distribution (33% vs. 92%, p=0.003) were found in heart failure group than that in pneumonia."
[05/06, 00:30] Dhu1 Pulmonary Edema: I went through this paper which led me to go through some of the literature I could get my hands on for this topic after my duty hours. I found this which you might find interesting:
[05/06, 00:31] Dhu1 Pulmonary Edema: An atelectatic lobe can develop a recoil equivalent of 50 mm Hg; normal lung has aretractile pull of only 5 mm Hg (4). When a lobe develops a greater retractile tendency than the rest of the lung, local variations in pleural pressure ensue. This variation results in greater negative intrapleural pressure surrounding the atelectatic lobe and produces a suction cup effect. Thus, when a buffer medium such as liquid or gas is present in the
pleural space, it will preferentially be attracted by the atelectatic lobe (Figs. 1-5).
Therefore, any atypical configuration of pleural effusion or pneumothorax should direct attention to the underlying lung parenchyma (5). An atypical arrangement of pleural effusion caused by focal alteration of intrapleural pressure can be readily differentiated from loculation due to adhesions by positional maneuvers that test the mobility of the effusion. Obstructive atelectasis develops the largest retractile forces and attracts a disproportionate amount of pleural effusion. An increased atelectatic
tendency in the lower lobes may explain large subpulmonic effusions (6).
~ Effects of Lobar Atelectasis on the Distribution of Pleural
Effusion and Pneumothorax (Paul Stark, M.D., and Ann Leung, M.D.)
[05/06, 00:34] Dhu1 Pulmonary Edema: It is a rather old paper but I believe it provides a theory for this phenomenon that is something along the lines of what I was thinking, since I have a strong feeling there is localized factor at play to explain the specific pattern of fluid accumulation, either by itself or in addition to a systemic factor like heart failure.
[06/06, 12:39] cm: Excellent! 👏👏
Please share the URL to it
This is the paper sir, I had to figure out a way to access it.
[13/06, 17:09] cm: Afternoon session:
The incidence of rheumatic valvular heart disease has remarkably decreased and this afternoon we found both mitral and aortic badly affected in this 33M
@ Pg please share his chest X-ray PA view
[13/06, 17:09]cm: A lot of pleural effusion on the right with consolidation likely due to heart failure pulmonary edema @huai1
[13/06, 17:27] Dhu1 Pulmonary Edema: Interesting sir, specifically since we have a CT available in this case. Should we then expect the consolidation to clear up with management appropriate to pulmonary edema soon?
[13/06, 17:27] Dhu1 Pulmonary Edema: Is this restricted only to the right lower lobe?
[13/06, 17:31]cm: Yes we should
But Hrcts can't be repeated to check that!
[13/06, 17:36] Dhu1 Pulmonary Edema: Yes quite certainly not. I will keep an eye out for more cases like these, but in this case given the distinct cardiac dysfunction pulmonary edema seems like the major culprit, leaving me confused again about why it isn't seen in both lungs.
[13/06, 19:24]cm: 👆 here's the reason perhaps
[13/06, 20:52] Dhu1 Pulmonary Edema: Not in this case I believe because there are no atelectatic factors present or local factors present.
[13/06, 21:38]cm: We don't know if they are
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