THURSDAY, MARCH 23,2023
Project: Rhythm of life conversational learning around raagams
Conversational learning:
More about conversational learning here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/
[3/10, 8.36PM] cm: Was just listening to this. https://youtu.be/xewZioxJcwo
[3/10, 8.40PM] cm: @hu1 what is the ragam of the first song?
[3/10, 10.00PM] hu1: Kanakangi ragam
[3/10, 10:02 PM] hu2: Please share your other musings
[3/10, 10:04 PM] hu1 : It is the 1st ragam of the 72 melakarta ragas
[3/10, 10:05 PM] hu1: And also happens to be the first thyagaraja composition I learnt as a child😇
[3/10, 10:16 PM] cm: The second and the second last note appear chromatic as in like its actually R1R2 same as R1D1?
Have you heard this rendition of the same 👇
[3/10, 10:21 PM] hu1: Nope will do thanks 😇✨
[3/11, 8:30 AM] hu2: Please introduce yourselves
This is ... I am fresher of kmc and I learnt some classical music at my 4th class but not carnatic and I am actually interested in learning carnatic music
[3/11, 8:38 AM] hu2: @ Please introduce yourselves
[3/11, 8:42 AM] hu1: Hello everyone, I am ... of 2022 batch at kmc
I have quite an intrest in carnatic music and still learning it from few years
[3/11, 8:50 AM] : Hii everyone
This is ... I am fresher of kmc.I am very much interested in learning carnatic music.
[3/11, 8:53 AM] cm: I guess @hu3 and @hu2 and some of the others can start teaching us here @hu2?
[3/11, 8:54 AM] cm: 👆Shall we begin with the first melakarta raga shared here?
[3/11, 8:56 AM] hu1: I teach carnatic basics during weekends . If you're interested I'll be more than happy to help✨😇
[3/11, 8:59 AM] hu4: This group name and purpose should be not just to learn but use music to heal patients I believe. Music therapy should be used
[3/11, 9:00 AM] hu1: Yes will work on that as well
[3/11, 9:00 AM] hu4: I use it in my sessions but in a way not to make the patient learn music but to understand the psyche of the person
[3/11, 9:01 AM] hu1: Yes ofcourse we used it in dentistry also as white noise during small surgeries
[3/11, 9:01 AM] hu2: @cm Our 'Music as a tool to understand Digital Psyche' thesis?
[3/11, 9:02 AM] hu4: Any rhythmic sound generated in nature I term it as music. It doesn't have to come from vocal chords
[3/11, 9:03 AM] hu2: Exactly
[3/11, 9:03 AM] hu1: It's basically a sound
[3/11, 9:03 AM] hu2: Yesss
[3/11, 9:03 AM] hu1: It can be from any object !
[3/11, 9:03 AM] hu1: Or nature like you said.
[3/11, 9:04 AM] hu2: Birds do it all the time
[3/11, 9:04 AM] hu1: Yass
[3/11, 9:08 AM] hu4: Iam listening to the rhythmic sound of my shoes when I walk now
[3/11, 9:09 AM] hu2: Dance?
[3/11, 9:09 AM] hu4: Walk
[3/11, 9:09 AM] hu4: Hope hindustani music is also allowed in the group
[3/11, 9:10 AM] hu1: Ofcourse
[3/11, 9:10 AM] hu4: I am a core fan of hindustani and not carnatic
[3/11, 9:10 AM] hu1: I am of music in itself 😇
[3/11, 9:11 AM] hu2: All kinds of music is allowed
[3/11, 9:11 AM] hu1: No preference music of any kind! Just happened to learn carnatic that's all. It the sound like I said that fascinates me
[3/11, 9:11 AM] hu4: Good I listen to European, African and latin American Music
[3/11, 9:11 AM] hu2: I'm a core fan of Rock n Roll,enjoys every kind
[3/11, 9:11 AM] hu1: I love blues and soul
[3/11, 9:12 AM] hu1: I love rock and pop equally
[3/11, 9:20 AM] hu2: They say that each melakartha and raga has unique ability to induce a certain kind of emotion in the brain. Like,one raga induces happiness, another sadness and etc.
We would like to know more about it from you
[3/11, 9:26 AM] hu2: https://youtu.be/rG1sCydzJTY
For example, this song causes 'bradycardia'
[3/11, 9:28 AM] hu2: @hu1 I'm not a singer or musician lol, but it's an observational finding
[3/11, 10:38 AM] hu4: Dorakuna ituvanti seva
[3/11, 10:40 AM] cm: Which version? Thyagaraja's original version in Bilahari or the film version in kalyani?
[3/11, 10:40 AM] hu2: 'Manasa sancharare'
[3/11, 10:41 AM] hu4: https://youtu.be/497WpG1HXR0
[3/11, 10:41 AM] cm: This is in Kalyani
[3/11, 10:42 AM] cm: That is in sama and the film stuck to the original version
[3/11, 11:44 AM] hu2: I learned carnatic music for few years in the past..bt I stopped learning due to academics ..I'm grateful tht I get to continue to learn this music again..
[3/11, 11:50 AM] hu1: This is one of my favourite annamayya keerthanas . It is a raagamalika the Pallavi and anupallavi are in karaharapriya ragam and the Charanam is in mayamalavagoula ragam
[3/11, 12:02 PM] hu2: Ragamaalika means more than 1 raga in a song?
[3/11, 12:04 PM] hu1: Yes a combination of ragas
[3/11, 12:04 PM] hu1: Just making it more complex more the complexity more the beauty
[3/11, 12:08 PM] hu2: Amazing lyrics💯💓.
Actually all Annamayya songs have great meaning.
He's a pakka socialist. Used devotion and music to spread his philosophy
[3/11, 12:08 PM] hu1: Haha most of the composers are
[3/11, 12:09 PM] hu2: https://youtu.be/vQ8elC_hLkU
👆🏻Lyrics of this song is pure socialism
[3/11, 12:09 PM] hu2: Do you also play any instruments?
[3/11, 12:11 PM] hu1: Not really just some doodling on the keys
[3/11, 12:11 PM] hu1: I just started learning uke
[3/11, 12:12 PM] hu1: It's a cute fascinating instrument for me
[3/11, 12:12 PM] hu2: Ukulele?
[3/11, 12:30 PM] cm: I'm assuming this is @hu1's voice?
When was it recorded?
[3/11, 12:37 PM] hu1: Bhaja govindam is a classic example..of ragamalika
[3/11, 12:37 PM] hu2: Yess
[3/11, 12:38 PM] hu1: I recorded it just today morning after my class
[3/11, 12:40 PM] cm: Were you teaching the class?
[3/11, 12:42 PM] hu1: Yes teaching :)
[3/11, 12:44 PM] hu2: Do you have any recordings of your classes?
[3/11, 12:59 PM] cm: It would be great if we could share links to our YouTube channels where we may have archived our own music (either what we listened to or what we ourselves created or performed)
[3/11, 1:28 PM] hu1: I have some audio files that I send out to kids I haven't shot any videos cuz they are too young and it would distract them
[3/11, 2:53 PM] hu2: Whats the difference between Hindustani and Carnatic music?
@hu1 @cm @hu4
[3/11, 3:03 PM] cm: In a single phrase
Carnatic is characterized by kampita gamakams which is rare in hindusthani
[3/11, 3:03 PM] hu2: What's Kampita gamakams?
[3/11, 3:04 PM] cm: That's for ChatGPT or google to answer
[3/11, 6:15 PM] hu2: @kmc tribe.
Did you guys meet Swaha?
She's an amazing doctor and biologist.17 years old.
Already working on patients and independent projects in collaboration with HBCSE (Homi Bhabha Centre for Science Education)
[3/11, 6:31 PM] hu5: Hello everyone
[3/11, 6:31 PM] hu5: This is Lakshya from Bihar
[3/11, 6:31 PM] hu5: Did my MBBS from government medical college, Gujarat
[3/11, 6:31 PM] hu5: Interested in research and learning new things
[3/11, 6:34 PM] hu2: Great to have you here with us
This is a collaborative group to delve deeper into the relationship between music and health/wellbeing.
[3/11, 6:53 PM] hu6: I am pursuing my sangeeta visharadha in carnatic music in potti sree ramulu university, this is my final year
So this group holds a lot of advantages for me..so thank you for that!!
[3/11, 6:53 PM] hu2: That's highly inspiring.
We are glad and fortunate to have you in this group with us.
@cm @hu4
[3/11, 6:54 PM] hu4: Lots to learn and practice!
[3/11, 6:54 PM] hu2: @hu1 Mam, hu3 and you can be our guides in learning music
[3/11, 7:02 PM] hu2: Can you elaborate us how the curriculum of carnatic music works?
What do they teach first?
[3/11, 7:04 PM] hu3: It's just like how u learn ur Normal english , the 7 swaras( swarasthanas) are same as the alphabets
[3/11, 7:05 PM] hu3: Not literally same but that's how the curriculum works
[3/11, 7:06 PM] hu3 : U learn the basics and then make your way upto the complex ones
[3/11, 7:06 PM] hu2: Sa, ri, ga, ma, pa, da, ni?
I went to carnatic classes for month or two while I was 10years old.
My teacher told that, each base sound originates from a different region, aka Chakra.
Like, sa from below umbilicus and ni from around neck.
Might be wrong.
Looking forward to know more about it
[3/11, 7:08 PM] hu3: Yes they are the 7 swarasthanas and yes each swara is known to have different place of origin in our body
[3/11, 8:19 PM] hu3: What's 'ornamentation' aka 'Kampita gamaka'?
[3/11, 8:20 PM] hu1: U know a pendulum oscillates
[3/11, 8:20 PM] hu1: Just like that u make the notes oscillate using ur vocal chords
[3/11, 8:20 PM] hu2: Gravity and lateral force?
[3/11, 8:21 PM] hu1: Kampitam in Sanskrit mean shake
[3/11, 8:22 PM] hu2: Gamaka means?
[3/11, 8:22 PM] hu2: Can we call it 'vibration of vocal cords'?
[3/11, 8:22 PM] hu1: So u know how gamakas sound right ornamented note.
[3/11, 8:23 PM] hu1: It's just the way of describing the way it sounds
[3/11, 8:23 PM] hu1: Ornamental note - gamaka
[3/12, 11:23 AM] hu2: Is 'swaram' same as 'raga'?
[3/12, 11:27 AM] hu1: Swaram is note
[3/12, 11:27 AM] hu1: And raga is made of swaras . It's a tune
[3/12, 11:27 AM] hu2: Got it
[3/12, 11:28 AM] cm: Swaram is "notes" also known as "vibrational frequency data points" that make up each ragam which can be just scalar (as in or aka Western scales) and vectoral as in Carnatic where the oscillations on the notes (vectoral spins) can make the same scale look very different as in ragam hanuma todi which is the same scale as sindhu bhairavi but sounds way different due to the vectorals
OK the above is something like a thesis I have been developing so you may not find it mentioned elsewhere but largely is more or less valid given a few stretches here and there. Also wish we can develop this thesis further and publish it with the enthusiasm of this group.
Wait till I share the links between AI and carnatic.
[3/12, 11:29 AM] hu2: Looking forward for it sir
[3/12, 11:36 AM] cm: And now the analogy of carnatic to medicine 👇
All these assortment of notes (vibrational event frequency data points) that can be arranged in different scalar permutations and combinations (sequence of events) giving rise to scalar raga patterns (aka simple diagnosis in medicine) or may have different parallel stream of events (aka clinical complexity due to comorbidities or different organ system involvement aka different illnesses playing together in the same individual and in Western Music this is analogous to harmony when different scales are played together concordantly).
The vectoral complexity of carnatic music is only around one single illness aka sequence of event data points with their individual vibrational frequency.
Those who work with us in our PaJR groups may be able to understand this easily
[3/12, 11:38 AM] hu2: Sir can I add all these group members to our PaJR volunteers group.
[3/12, 11:38 AM] cm: Ask them. Only if they are interested and not scared of getting overdosed on our medicine practice! 🙂
[3/12, 6:09 PM] hu2: Cuckoo's call
Date: 12/03/23
Time: 6:06pm
Location: Malvan Sindhudurg Maharashtra
Coordinates: 16.0631° N, 73.4711° E
[3/12, 8:29 PM] cm: Music and Machine learning:
[3/12, 8:56 PM] hu2: Well, that kinda broadened the perspective
[3/12, 9:41 PM] cm: If some of you have been able to reach till 17"30 of this video, you may realize that one of the academic cognitive aims of listening to music (in this project aided by ML AI) is diagnosing the overall pattern of the vibrational frequency events perceived (diagnosis as in previously identified patterns that have been labeled with a name) and here is where the analogy of music and medicine begins and I wonder if any of you are interested in learning more using some sample patterns that I can share for you to diagnose using the quick and dirty tools, namely internet searching or even asking around as a first step to learning, unless you are already ahead into advanced levels in this game where you can give imaginative hints and hand hold other less advanced learners instead of blurting out the answer straight away.
So here goes :
Identify this raga from a popular telegu song of yesteryears 👇
[3/14, 7:25 PM] hu6: Thanks alot @hu2 it's my pleasure to be a part of this team. I am currently doing my final year residency dept of General Medicine. As a part of recreation I enjoy music, watching series, interested in research.
[3/14, 7:26 PM] hu2: It's our pleasure to have you with us sir
[3/14, 8:00 PM] cm: 👆There were no takers to diagnosing the raga in the telegu song link shared above. I guess not many people may like to engage in Google diagnosing ragas similar to how google diagnosis of illnesses are currently frowned upon.
This one in the same raga (overall tune as @hu1 may like to put it) would be easier through google searching 👇
[3/14, 8:01 PM] hu2: It's not that there are no takers sir.
It maybe a case that our professional takers are busy in their another ontological constraints
[3/14, 8:01 PM] hu2: We are looking at this project(group) in longterm
[3/14, 8:01 PM] hu2: No hurries or pressure for anyone
[3/14, 8:02 PM] cm: 👍
[3/15, 8:04 AM] hu2: Maandh raga and Aadi thala?
[3/15, 8:07 AM] cm: Notice any similarity between the previous telegu and this Tamil version the same ragam?
@hu1 @hu3 and others:
What are the vibrational event data points (aka swarams) that are characteristic of this diagnosis?
[3/15, 8:07 AM] hu3: I thought it was somewhere realted to shankarabhranam , but could be maand as it's a derived or jenya ragam or shankarabhranam
[3/15, 8:09 AM] hu3: Apologies as not able to find it exactly as just merely listening to the kriti and telling the ragam takes a lot of expertise and practice and I have not even reached to the level!
[3/15, 8:12 AM] cm: Well here's the Informatics and expertise connection I need you all to understand and how we are making this "music and medicine" exercise a demonstration of case based medical Informatics (Dinesh's topic for G20).
Google can identify ragas using it's informatics brain based on collective user driven contribution of information to the www
Similarly every patient can find out his diagnosis provided there are adequate data points around his her illness in the www
[3/15, 8:14 AM] hu2: If we have effectively captured all the data points which lead the patient to come to hospital?
[3/15, 8:15 AM] cm: There need not be any hospital. Just human beings educated enough to help each other should be enough
[3/15, 8:15 AM] hu2: On point sir
[3/15, 8:16 AM] hu2: Again, due to industrial evolution and etc, few things like road traffic accidents etc only need hospitals
[3/15, 8:31 AM] hu4: Sir, the patient knows the root cause of his physical issues in more than 90 percent of the cases. But he depends so much on external faculty like the madical fraternity that he loses himself and cannot think for himself. We have Highjacked his mental faculties
[3/15, 8:34 AM] hu2: True
[3/15, 8:34 AM] cm: That's why we need to make them listen to their own music before taking it to the doctors
[3/15, 8:36 AM] hu2: Sometimes the music maybe Death metal,black metal or straightup crossover thrash.
Which needs to be looked on by the patient himselves
[3/15, 8:36 AM] cm: They know their own experiences better but the professional trouble shooters have general knowledge that may help if delivered as per the requirements. Musical harmony matching note by note is precision medicine?
[3/15, 8:37 AM] hu2: Patient is familiar with n of 1 data points
While fraternity is exposed to n of multitude data points as part of their curriculum
[3/15, 8:37 AM] hu4: It has happened once after hundreds of years Sir. That is during the Covid period. I felt the huge redundancy of medical fraternity when the people were listening to their healing abilities or to be healthy habit when they knew during covid that medical fraternity is unavailable to address their non existent physical issues
[3/15, 8:40 AM] cm: It happens everyday when humans die.
Everyday even today a large number will die. During covid there was a small noticeable spike in that number
But those who didnt die listened to bad evidence based advice on TV, to take steroids, remdesivir etc which needlessly complicated the music
[3/15, 8:43 AM] hu4: People were eating healthy, they breathed fresh air, they spent time with family, the running behind materials had stopped, people were more near to nature. I personally saw many birds chirping which were rare. I even saw ducks with ducklings coming on road. The healing happened spontaneously for the mind body and spirit when the entire world slowed down Sir during covid
[3/15, 8:44 AM] cm: Yes we need to credit the smaller virus to stop the bigger one 🙂👍
[3/15, 9:47 AM] cm: This is analogous to doing nothing in healthcare.
Currently it's grossly underrated due to industry drivers which educates us early on to do something (preferably using the tech they need to push)
Doing nothing and just listening to music together pointing out how the multi modal vibrational events as data points make the bigger picture of the diagnosis is what the world needs?
More here from someone who's still scratching the surface 👇
[3/22, 9:50 PM] cm: 👆We began our musical diagnosis journey with the telegu song linked at the bottom of the post shared here earlier.
Here's another version of the same, stripped off the sahityam (like the DNA that remains if someone strips off the epigenome made of histone among other things).
It's played by a very popular telegu veena player where he jumps to a very high note that is a catchy illustration of the sahityam where the bird song is replicated using the veena at the point where the sahityam mentions it 👇
[3/23, 9:06 PM] hu2: Listen to this audio and check out question number 32 👇
[3/23, 9:13 PM] cm: Realised there were 4 parts to this question paper and I meant 32 of part 4!!
This is from one of our patient's PaJR groups who graciously keeps sharing his metapsyched mind body connections through the music he loves.
PaJR link :
[3/23, 10:01 PM] cm: Now the only issue is that (and it's often an issue with many of Rabindranath's carnatic borrowals) that although the Carnatic piece is named in the university exam question paper, it's very difficult to actually get to hear that original carnatic song from which Tagore borrowed.
Anyone here can share any link to the carnatic composition "Purna Chandranane" that apparently Tagore borrowed from?
[3/23, 10:12 PM] cm: [3/23, 10:06 PM] cm: No no. See that university paper question linked above. We are talking about Carnatic "purna chandranane" that Tagore borrowed from
[3/23, 10:07 PM] hu2: Did Tagore borrow from a Thyagaraja keerthana?
[3/23, 10:09 PM] cm: He did for other songs but not sure what kriti is this.
More details here 👇
Written on: 1883
Published in: Tatwabodhini Patrika
Collection: Robichhaya
Swarabitan: 45
Notation by: Protibha Debi
Bhanga Gaan
Notes: Derived from a Kannad song "Purna Chandranane".
[3/23, 10:57 PM] cm: Finally got the lyrics to the song here in ragam hari kambhoji.
Can anyone share a YouTube link to the actual singing of this song?
[3/24, 7:21 AM] cm: Interesting how one entire song of Swati Tirunal can become extinct as far as the online ecosystem is concerned.
Here's another interesting number in the ragam maand aka overall tune with a sequence pattern known as maand.
Just notice how the composer uses gaps in the nucleotide sequence to create an effect that could make one think that what are introns then.
The gaps in these exon sequences create a separate effect than introns.
Introns could be analogous to the advertisements in YouTube?
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