THURSDAY, MARCH 23,2023
Project: Rhythm of life conversational learning around raagams
Conversational learning:
More about conversational learning here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/
[3/10, 8.36PM] cm: Was just listening to this. https://youtu.be/xewZioxJcwo
[3/10, 8.40PM] cm: @hu1 what is the ragam of the first song?
[3/10, 10.00PM] hu1: Kanakangi ragam
[3/10, 10:02 PM] hu2: Please share your other musings
[3/10, 10:04 PM] hu1 : It is the 1st ragam of the 72 melakarta ragas
[3/10, 10:05 PM] hu1: And also happens to be the first thyagaraja composition I learnt as a child😇
[3/10, 10:16 PM] cm: The second and the second last note appear chromatic as in like its actually R1R2 same as R1D1?
Have you heard this rendition of the same 👇
[3/10, 10:21 PM] hu1: Nope will do thanks 😇✨
[3/11, 8:30 AM] hu2: Please introduce yourselves
This is ... I am fresher of kmc and I learnt some classical music at my 4th class but not carnatic and I am actually interested in learning carnatic music
[3/11, 8:38 AM] hu2: @ Please introduce yourselves
[3/11, 8:42 AM] hu1: Hello everyone, I am ... of 2022 batch at kmc
I have quite an intrest in carnatic music and still learning it from few years
[3/11, 8:50 AM] : Hii everyone
This is ... I am fresher of kmc.I am very much interested in learning carnatic music.
[3/11, 8:53 AM] cm: I guess @hu3 and @hu2 and some of the others can start teaching us here @hu2?
[3/11, 8:54 AM] cm: 👆Shall we begin with the first melakarta raga shared here?
[3/11, 8:56 AM] hu1: I teach carnatic basics during weekends . If you're interested I'll be more than happy to help✨😇
[3/11, 8:59 AM] hu4: This group name and purpose should be not just to learn but use music to heal patients I believe. Music therapy should be used
[3/11, 9:00 AM] hu1: Yes will work on that as well
[3/11, 9:00 AM] hu4: I use it in my sessions but in a way not to make the patient learn music but to understand the psyche of the person
[3/11, 9:01 AM] hu1: Yes ofcourse we used it in dentistry also as white noise during small surgeries
[3/11, 9:01 AM] hu2: @cm Our 'Music as a tool to understand Digital Psyche' thesis?
[3/11, 9:02 AM] hu4: Any rhythmic sound generated in nature I term it as music. It doesn't have to come from vocal chords
[3/11, 9:03 AM] hu2: Exactly
[3/11, 9:03 AM] hu1: It's basically a sound
[3/11, 9:03 AM] hu2: Yesss
[3/11, 9:03 AM] hu1: It can be from any object !
[3/11, 9:03 AM] hu1: Or nature like you said.
[3/11, 9:04 AM] hu2: Birds do it all the time
[3/11, 9:04 AM] hu1: Yass
[3/11, 9:08 AM] hu4: Iam listening to the rhythmic sound of my shoes when I walk now
[3/11, 9:09 AM] hu2: Dance?
[3/11, 9:09 AM] hu4: Walk
[3/11, 9:09 AM] hu4: Hope hindustani music is also allowed in the group
[3/11, 9:10 AM] hu1: Ofcourse
[3/11, 9:10 AM] hu4: I am a core fan of hindustani and not carnatic
[3/11, 9:10 AM] hu1: I am of music in itself 😇
[3/11, 9:11 AM] hu2: All kinds of music is allowed
[3/11, 9:11 AM] hu1: No preference music of any kind! Just happened to learn carnatic that's all. It the sound like I said that fascinates me
[3/11, 9:11 AM] hu4: Good I listen to European, African and latin American Music
[3/11, 9:11 AM] hu2: I'm a core fan of Rock n Roll,enjoys every kind
[3/11, 9:11 AM] hu1: I love blues and soul
[3/11, 9:12 AM] hu1: I love rock and pop equally
[3/11, 9:20 AM] hu2: They say that each melakartha and raga has unique ability to induce a certain kind of emotion in the brain. Like,one raga induces happiness, another sadness and etc.
We would like to know more about it from you
[3/11, 9:26 AM] hu2: https://youtu.be/rG1sCydzJTY
For example, this song causes 'bradycardia'
[3/11, 9:28 AM] hu2: @hu1 I'm not a singer or musician lol, but it's an observational finding
[3/11, 10:38 AM] hu4: Dorakuna ituvanti seva
[3/11, 10:40 AM] cm: Which version? Thyagaraja's original version in Bilahari or the film version in kalyani?
[3/11, 10:40 AM] hu2: 'Manasa sancharare'
[3/11, 10:41 AM] hu4: https://youtu.be/497WpG1HXR0
[3/11, 10:41 AM] cm: This is in Kalyani
[3/11, 10:42 AM] cm: That is in sama and the film stuck to the original version
[3/11, 11:44 AM] hu2: I learned carnatic music for few years in the past..bt I stopped learning due to academics ..I'm grateful tht I get to continue to learn this music again..
[3/11, 11:50 AM] hu1: This is one of my favourite annamayya keerthanas . It is a raagamalika the Pallavi and anupallavi are in karaharapriya ragam and the Charanam is in mayamalavagoula ragam
[3/11, 12:02 PM] hu2: Ragamaalika means more than 1 raga in a song?
[3/11, 12:04 PM] hu1: Yes a combination of ragas
[3/11, 12:04 PM] hu1: Just making it more complex more the complexity more the beauty
[3/11, 12:08 PM] hu2: Amazing lyrics💯💓.
Actually all Annamayya songs have great meaning.
He's a pakka socialist. Used devotion and music to spread his philosophy
[3/11, 12:08 PM] hu1: Haha most of the composers are
[3/11, 12:09 PM] hu2: https://youtu.be/vQ8elC_hLkU
👆🏻Lyrics of this song is pure socialism
[3/11, 12:09 PM] hu2: Do you also play any instruments?
[3/11, 12:11 PM] hu1: Not really just some doodling on the keys
[3/11, 12:11 PM] hu1: I just started learning uke
[3/11, 12:12 PM] hu1: It's a cute fascinating instrument for me
[3/11, 12:12 PM] hu2: Ukulele?
[3/11, 12:30 PM] cm: I'm assuming this is @hu1's voice?
When was it recorded?
[3/11, 12:37 PM] hu1: Bhaja govindam is a classic example..of ragamalika
[3/11, 12:37 PM] hu2: Yess
[3/11, 12:38 PM] hu1: I recorded it just today morning after my class
[3/11, 12:40 PM] cm: Were you teaching the class?
[3/11, 12:42 PM] hu1: Yes teaching :)
[3/11, 12:44 PM] hu2: Do you have any recordings of your classes?
[3/11, 12:59 PM] cm: It would be great if we could share links to our YouTube channels where we may have archived our own music (either what we listened to or what we ourselves created or performed)
[3/11, 1:28 PM] hu1: I have some audio files that I send out to kids I haven't shot any videos cuz they are too young and it would distract them
[3/11, 2:53 PM] hu2: Whats the difference between Hindustani and Carnatic music?
@hu1 @cm @hu4
[3/11, 3:03 PM] cm: In a single phrase
Carnatic is characterized by kampita gamakams which is rare in hindusthani
[3/11, 3:03 PM] hu2: What's Kampita gamakams?
[3/11, 3:04 PM] cm: That's for ChatGPT or google to answer
[3/11, 6:15 PM] hu2: @kmc tribe.
Did you guys meet Swaha?
She's an amazing doctor and biologist.17 years old.
Already working on patients and independent projects in collaboration with HBCSE (Homi Bhabha Centre for Science Education)
[3/11, 6:31 PM] hu5: Hello everyone
[3/11, 6:31 PM] hu5: This is Lakshya from Bihar
[3/11, 6:31 PM] hu5: Did my MBBS from government medical college, Gujarat
[3/11, 6:31 PM] hu5: Interested in research and learning new things
[3/11, 6:34 PM] hu2: Great to have you here with us
This is a collaborative group to delve deeper into the relationship between music and health/wellbeing.
[3/11, 6:53 PM] hu6: I am pursuing my sangeeta visharadha in carnatic music in potti sree ramulu university, this is my final year
So this group holds a lot of advantages for me..so thank you for that!!
[3/11, 6:53 PM] hu2: That's highly inspiring.
We are glad and fortunate to have you in this group with us.
@cm @hu4
[3/11, 6:54 PM] hu4: Lots to learn and practice!
[3/11, 6:54 PM] hu2: @hu1 Mam, hu3 and you can be our guides in learning music
[3/11, 7:02 PM] hu2: Can you elaborate us how the curriculum of carnatic music works?
What do they teach first?
[3/11, 7:04 PM] hu3: It's just like how u learn ur Normal english , the 7 swaras( swarasthanas) are same as the alphabets
[3/11, 7:05 PM] hu3: Not literally same but that's how the curriculum works
[3/11, 7:06 PM] hu3 : U learn the basics and then make your way upto the complex ones
[3/11, 7:06 PM] hu2: Sa, ri, ga, ma, pa, da, ni?
I went to carnatic classes for month or two while I was 10years old.
My teacher told that, each base sound originates from a different region, aka Chakra.
Like, sa from below umbilicus and ni from around neck.
Might be wrong.
Looking forward to know more about it
[3/11, 7:08 PM] hu3: Yes they are the 7 swarasthanas and yes each swara is known to have different place of origin in our body
[3/11, 8:19 PM] hu3: What's 'ornamentation' aka 'Kampita gamaka'?
[3/11, 8:20 PM] hu1: U know a pendulum oscillates
[3/11, 8:20 PM] hu1: Just like that u make the notes oscillate using ur vocal chords
[3/11, 8:20 PM] hu2: Gravity and lateral force?
[3/11, 8:21 PM] hu1: Kampitam in Sanskrit mean shake
[3/11, 8:22 PM] hu2: Gamaka means?
[3/11, 8:22 PM] hu2: Can we call it 'vibration of vocal cords'?
[3/11, 8:22 PM] hu1: So u know how gamakas sound right ornamented note.
[3/11, 8:23 PM] hu1: It's just the way of describing the way it sounds
[3/11, 8:23 PM] hu1: Ornamental note - gamaka
[3/12, 11:23 AM] hu2: Is 'swaram' same as 'raga'?
[3/12, 11:27 AM] hu1: Swaram is note
[3/12, 11:27 AM] hu1: And raga is made of swaras . It's a tune
[3/12, 11:27 AM] hu2: Got it
[3/12, 11:28 AM] cm: Swaram is "notes" also known as "vibrational frequency data points" that make up each ragam which can be just scalar (as in or aka Western scales) and vectoral as in Carnatic where the oscillations on the notes (vectoral spins) can make the same scale look very different as in ragam hanuma todi which is the same scale as sindhu bhairavi but sounds way different due to the vectorals
OK the above is something like a thesis I have been developing so you may not find it mentioned elsewhere but largely is more or less valid given a few stretches here and there. Also wish we can develop this thesis further and publish it with the enthusiasm of this group.
Wait till I share the links between AI and carnatic.
[3/12, 11:29 AM] hu2: Looking forward for it sir
[3/12, 11:36 AM] cm: And now the analogy of carnatic to medicine 👇
All these assortment of notes (vibrational event frequency data points) that can be arranged in different scalar permutations and combinations (sequence of events) giving rise to scalar raga patterns (aka simple diagnosis in medicine) or may have different parallel stream of events (aka clinical complexity due to comorbidities or different organ system involvement aka different illnesses playing together in the same individual and in Western Music this is analogous to harmony when different scales are played together concordantly).
The vectoral complexity of carnatic music is only around one single illness aka sequence of event data points with their individual vibrational frequency.
Those who work with us in our PaJR groups may be able to understand this easily
[3/12, 11:38 AM] hu2: Sir can I add all these group members to our PaJR volunteers group.
[3/12, 11:38 AM] cm: Ask them. Only if they are interested and not scared of getting overdosed on our medicine practice! 🙂
[3/12, 6:09 PM] hu2: Cuckoo's call
Date: 12/03/23
Time: 6:06pm
Location: Malvan Sindhudurg Maharashtra
Coordinates: 16.0631° N, 73.4711° E
[3/12, 8:29 PM] cm: Music and Machine learning:
[3/12, 8:56 PM] hu2: Well, that kinda broadened the perspective
[3/12, 9:41 PM] cm: If some of you have been able to reach till 17"30 of this video, you may realize that one of the academic cognitive aims of listening to music (in this project aided by ML AI) is diagnosing the overall pattern of the vibrational frequency events perceived (diagnosis as in previously identified patterns that have been labeled with a name) and here is where the analogy of music and medicine begins and I wonder if any of you are interested in learning more using some sample patterns that I can share for you to diagnose using the quick and dirty tools, namely internet searching or even asking around as a first step to learning, unless you are already ahead into advanced levels in this game where you can give imaginative hints and hand hold other less advanced learners instead of blurting out the answer straight away.
So here goes :
Identify this raga from a popular telegu song of yesteryears 👇
[3/14, 7:25 PM] hu6: Thanks alot @hu2 it's my pleasure to be a part of this team. I am currently doing my final year residency dept of General Medicine. As a part of recreation I enjoy music, watching series, interested in research.
[3/14, 7:26 PM] hu2: It's our pleasure to have you with us sir
[3/14, 8:00 PM] cm: 👆There were no takers to diagnosing the raga in the telegu song link shared above. I guess not many people may like to engage in Google diagnosing ragas similar to how google diagnosis of illnesses are currently frowned upon.
This one in the same raga (overall tune as @hu1 may like to put it) would be easier through google searching 👇
[3/14, 8:01 PM] hu2: It's not that there are no takers sir.
It maybe a case that our professional takers are busy in their another ontological constraints
[3/14, 8:01 PM] hu2: We are looking at this project(group) in longterm
[3/14, 8:01 PM] hu2: No hurries or pressure for anyone
[3/14, 8:02 PM] cm: 👍
[3/15, 8:04 AM] hu2: Maandh raga and Aadi thala?
[3/15, 8:07 AM] cm: Notice any similarity between the previous telegu and this Tamil version the same ragam?
@hu1 @hu3 and others:
What are the vibrational event data points (aka swarams) that are characteristic of this diagnosis?
[3/15, 8:07 AM] hu3: I thought it was somewhere realted to shankarabhranam , but could be maand as it's a derived or jenya ragam or shankarabhranam
[3/15, 8:09 AM] hu3: Apologies as not able to find it exactly as just merely listening to the kriti and telling the ragam takes a lot of expertise and practice and I have not even reached to the level!
[3/15, 8:12 AM] cm: Well here's the Informatics and expertise connection I need you all to understand and how we are making this "music and medicine" exercise a demonstration of case based medical Informatics (Dinesh's topic for G20).
Google can identify ragas using it's informatics brain based on collective user driven contribution of information to the www
Similarly every patient can find out his diagnosis provided there are adequate data points around his her illness in the www
[3/15, 8:14 AM] hu2: If we have effectively captured all the data points which lead the patient to come to hospital?
[3/15, 8:15 AM] cm: There need not be any hospital. Just human beings educated enough to help each other should be enough
[3/15, 8:15 AM] hu2: On point sir
[3/15, 8:16 AM] hu2: Again, due to industrial evolution and etc, few things like road traffic accidents etc only need hospitals
[3/15, 8:31 AM] hu4: Sir, the patient knows the root cause of his physical issues in more than 90 percent of the cases. But he depends so much on external faculty like the madical fraternity that he loses himself and cannot think for himself. We have Highjacked his mental faculties
[3/15, 8:34 AM] hu2: True
[3/15, 8:34 AM] cm: That's why we need to make them listen to their own music before taking it to the doctors
[3/15, 8:36 AM] hu2: Sometimes the music maybe Death metal,black metal or straightup crossover thrash.
Which needs to be looked on by the patient himselves
[3/15, 8:36 AM] cm: They know their own experiences better but the professional trouble shooters have general knowledge that may help if delivered as per the requirements. Musical harmony matching note by note is precision medicine?
[3/15, 8:37 AM] hu2: Patient is familiar with n of 1 data points
While fraternity is exposed to n of multitude data points as part of their curriculum
[3/15, 8:37 AM] hu4: It has happened once after hundreds of years Sir. That is during the Covid period. I felt the huge redundancy of medical fraternity when the people were listening to their healing abilities or to be healthy habit when they knew during covid that medical fraternity is unavailable to address their non existent physical issues
[3/15, 8:40 AM] cm: It happens everyday when humans die.
Everyday even today a large number will die. During covid there was a small noticeable spike in that number
But those who didnt die listened to bad evidence based advice on TV, to take steroids, remdesivir etc which needlessly complicated the music
[3/15, 8:43 AM] hu4: People were eating healthy, they breathed fresh air, they spent time with family, the running behind materials had stopped, people were more near to nature. I personally saw many birds chirping which were rare. I even saw ducks with ducklings coming on road. The healing happened spontaneously for the mind body and spirit when the entire world slowed down Sir during covid
[3/15, 8:44 AM] cm: Yes we need to credit the smaller virus to stop the bigger one 🙂👍
[3/15, 9:47 AM] cm: This is analogous to doing nothing in healthcare.
Currently it's grossly underrated due to industry drivers which educates us early on to do something (preferably using the tech they need to push)
Doing nothing and just listening to music together pointing out how the multi modal vibrational events as data points make the bigger picture of the diagnosis is what the world needs?
More here from someone who's still scratching the surface 👇
[3/22, 9:50 PM] cm: 👆We began our musical diagnosis journey with the telegu song linked at the bottom of the post shared here earlier.
Here's another version of the same, stripped off the sahityam (like the DNA that remains if someone strips off the epigenome made of histone among other things).
It's played by a very popular telegu veena player where he jumps to a very high note that is a catchy illustration of the sahityam where the bird song is replicated using the veena at the point where the sahityam mentions it 👇
[3/23, 9:06 PM] hu2: Listen to this audio and check out question number 32 👇
[3/23, 9:13 PM] cm: Realised there were 4 parts to this question paper and I meant 32 of part 4!!
This is from one of our patient's PaJR groups who graciously keeps sharing his metapsyched mind body connections through the music he loves.
PaJR link :
[3/23, 10:01 PM] cm: Now the only issue is that (and it's often an issue with many of Rabindranath's carnatic borrowals) that although the Carnatic piece is named in the university exam question paper, it's very difficult to actually get to hear that original carnatic song from which Tagore borrowed.
Anyone here can share any link to the carnatic composition "Purna Chandranane" that apparently Tagore borrowed from?
[3/23, 10:12 PM] cm: [3/23, 10:06 PM] cm: No no. See that university paper question linked above. We are talking about Carnatic "purna chandranane" that Tagore borrowed from
[3/23, 10:07 PM] hu2: Did Tagore borrow from a Thyagaraja keerthana?
[3/23, 10:09 PM] cm: He did for other songs but not sure what kriti is this.
More details here 👇
Written on: 1883
Published in: Tatwabodhini Patrika
Collection: Robichhaya
Swarabitan: 45
Notation by: Protibha Debi
Bhanga Gaan
Notes: Derived from a Kannad song "Purna Chandranane".
[3/23, 10:57 PM] cm: Finally got the lyrics to the song here in ragam hari kambhoji.
Can anyone share a YouTube link to the actual singing of this song?
[3/24, 7:21 AM] cm: Interesting how one entire song of Swati Tirunal can become extinct as far as the online ecosystem is concerned.
Here's another interesting number in the ragam maand aka overall tune with a sequence pattern known as maand.
Just notice how the composer uses gaps in the nucleotide sequence to create an effect that could make one think that what are introns then.
The gaps in these exon sequences create a separate effect than introns.
Introns could be analogous to the advertisements in YouTube?
[23-06-2025 18.53] cm: The interesting part about this swarajati is that each charanam begins with the swaras s, r, g, m, p, d, n, s and there's that many charanams
[7:19 am, 24/06/2025] hu7: Yes. There are some swarajatis which follow similar pattern
[7:20 am, 24/06/2025]hu7: There are a set of 3 Kamakshi swarajatis 1. Bhairavi 2. Thodi 3. Yadukula Kamboji.
[8:24 am, 24/06/2025] cm: Yes. Will dig into 2 and 3 once I've had a grip on Bhairavi. @Lajrupa Bhadra which Hindusthani raga do you think would be the closest approximation to carnatic Bhairavi in terms of their swara vibrational events as well as contextual trajectories? @hu8 @Meta AI
[8:24 am, 24/06/2025] Meta AI: That's a fascinating question! 🤔 While there's no direct equivalent, I'd say Hindustani Raga Bhairava is the closest approximation to Carnatic Bhairavi. Both ragas share similar swara patterns and emotional connotations. Bhairava in Hindustani music is known for its intense, solemn, and contemplative mood, which aligns with the characteristics of Carnatic Bhairavi. Give it a listen and see how the swara vibrational events resonate with you! 🎵
[8:28 am, 24/06/2025] cm: @Meta AI Can you be specific if it's just Bhairava because it doesn't appear to be so as carnatic Bhairava has kaishiki nishadham which is not present in hindusthani Bhairava. Would you like to add a prefix word to Hindusthani bhairava and see if then it matches the swara pattern of carnatic bharavi? Even then it's usage of shuddha dhaivatam only in the avrohana is another unique feature, which I'm not sure which Hindusthani raga would match
[8:28 am, 24/06/2025] Meta AI: Great point about the kaishiki nishadam in Carnatic Bhairavi! 🤯 Considering the nuances, I'd propose Hindustani Raga Kafi or possibly a blend of Bhairava with some nuances of Kafi might approximate the swara patterns of Carnatic Bhairavi better, given Kafi's use of Komal Ni. However, the specific usage of Shuddha Dhaivatam in avrohana is indeed unique. Perhaps Nat Bhairav or a specific gat in Bhairava that incorporates more nuanced Ni and Dhaivatam usage could be closer, but it's still an approximation. The complexity of raga nuances across traditions makes direct comparisons challenging. 🎶 What do you think about exploring Nat Bhairav or a Bhairava gat with Komal Ni touches?
[8:29 am, 24/06/2025] cm: @Meta AI how about Hindusthani ahir bhairava swaras and carnatic bhairava swaras match?
[8:29 am, 24/06/2025] Meta AI: Ahir Bhairava is an interesting choice! 🤔 When comparing Ahir Bhairava's swaras to Carnatic Bhairavi, there are some similarities, but differences remain. Ahir Bhairava's use of Komal Ni and specific phrases might align more closely with Carnatic Bhairavi's swara patterns, especially considering the Komal Ni in Ahir Bhairava. However, the dhaivatam usage and specific avroha patterns in Carnatic Bhairavi still set it apart. Ahir Bhairava's overall mood and some melodic patterns might resonate with Carnatic Bhairavi, but it's still a nuanced comparison. Have you explored Ahir Bhairava compositions or bandishes that might give you a deeper feel for its swara patterns and emotional resonance?
[9:33 am, 24/06/2025] hu7: One in Kalyani , where each charanam starts in ascending order of swaras
[9:34 am, 24/06/2025] hu7: Swaraksharas are also another contribution of Sri Shyama to sastry. Other grammatical delicacies are also his specialty
[9:49 am, 24/06/2025] cm: Yes swaraksharas are fascinating!
[9:49 am, 24/06/2025] cm: Can you spot the swaraksharas in Kaamakshi?
[9:49 am, 24/06/2025] hu7: Bhairavi??
[9:49 am, 24/06/2025] cm: Do share a link to it
[9:50 am, 24/06/2025] cm: Yes
[9:54 am, 24/06/2025] cm: n,RSRnRn,dPdmPg,RSRnSRgmP,,,
nīpavananilayāsurasamudayākaravidhrtakuvalayā
[9:54 am, 24/06/2025] hu7: 1. Nee paadamule
2. pā takamulanu ( 5th)
3. nee pavana ni laya (7th)
[10:05 am, 24/06/2025] cm: 1.n,,,,d,,,,,,mP,,,,,,DnS,,,,gR
kāmākṣiambāamba
RSn,,,,nd,,,,,,dnP,,,,,,nDn,S,,,,gR
kāmākṣiambāamba
RSn,,,,nd,,,,,,dnP,,,,,,nDn,SRgmPmg
kāmākṣi anudinamu maravakane
,,,,n,S,RgmP,DnSSRn,dPmg,,R,RS
nī pādamule dikk anucu nammiti ni śrī kañci(kāmākṣi)
👆@hu7 please correct the swaras if I've missed anything
[9:57 am, 02/07/2025] cm: Rashtrapati Nilayam (lit. 'The president's house'), formerly known as Residency House, is the official winter retreat of the President of India located in Hyderabad, Telangana.[1] The President stays here for at least two weeks during their winter visit and conducts official business 
[8:19 pm, 02/07/2025] cm: https://ragajunglism.org/ragas/about/#contributors
[10:08 am, 15/07/2025] cm: Check out the carnatic connection to two RNT kritis exchanged by group members here in pm this morning.
Sharing in the group after deidentifying the members:
[15/07, 07:54]hu1: Sir, what is the meaning of this song?
[15/07, 07:54]:
Last one in this play list:
[15/07, 09:51]cm: Thanks for sharing and bringing back many nostalgic memories of my tryst with this song
[15/07, 09:59]cm using an LLM: Here is the English translation of the Bengali poem:
Touch my soul with your fire's touchstone.
Make this life holy through the gift of burning.
Lift this body of mine,
Turn it into a lamp in your temple—
May the flame of light burn night and day in song.
Your touch upon the darkness, layer by layer,
Shall blossom into new stars all night long.
The darkness will disappear from the eyes' sight,
Wherever it falls, there shall be light.
My pain shall rise, burning upward, into light.
This is a deeply spiritual and symbolic poem by Rabindranath Tagore, referring to purification of the soul through divine fire, transformation of suffering into enlightenment, and surrender to the divine.
[15/07, 09:58]cm: Compare the above translation with the human translated one below borrowed from:
Give a touch of the fiery magical stone to my life,
Purify me, clarify me, enlighten me,
With all severe pain, purify my soul.
Uphold my mortal body high, enlightened
Allow me to serve your temple as the burning lamp inside –
Let the lamp radiate through my songs.
With your petite touches into the darkness
Nascent stars arise glimmering all night.
My eyes will not find a dark spot anywhere
It will be light everywhere
All my sufferings would burn and soar skyward
[15/07, 09:59] ChatGPT: Both translations convey the essence of Tagore's original Bengali, but they differ in tone, literalness, and poetic flow. Here's a comparison:
---
Opening lines:
- Yours:
"Touch my soul with your fire's touchstone. Make this life holy through the gift of burning."
→ Poetic, faithful to the spiritual symbolism.
- Alternate:
"Give a touch of the fiery magical stone to my life, Purify me, clarify me, enlighten me..."
→ Slightly more elaborate, interpretative; includes paraphrasing like "clarify me" which isn't explicit in the original.
---
Body and Soul Imagery:
- Yours:
"Lift this body of mine, turn it into a lamp in your temple..."
→ Evokes surrender and devotion with clarity.
- Alternate:
"Uphold my mortal body high, enlightened. Allow me to serve your temple as the burning lamp inside..."
→ Slightly wordier and more interpretive.
---
Darkness to Light Motif:
- Yours:
"The darkness will disappear from the eyes' sight..."
→ More literal and grounded in Tagore’s metaphor.
- Alternate:
"My eyes will not find a dark spot anywhere..."
→ Slightly more descriptive, conversational tone.
---
Pain and Transformation:
- Yours:
"My pain shall rise, burning upward, into light."
[15/07, 09:59] ChatGPT: → Concise, spiritual ascent imagery preserved.
- Alternate:
"All my sufferings would burn and soar skyward."
→ Similar meaning, but more descriptive.
---
Summary:
- Yours is more faithful to the structure and emotional restraint of Tagore's original.
- The alternate version adds interpretive flourishes and modern phrasing that may appeal to a wider or newer audience.
Both are valid; the choice depends on whether one wants a closer rendering or a more expressive paraphrase.
[15/07, 10:02]cm: Saved it in my playlist for the same ragam 👇
[10:09 am, 15/07/2025] cm: Two carnatic singers have sung the same ragam playlisted above.
One is Tanjore S Kalyanraman and the other TMK who sang the RNT kriti
[10:16 am, 15/07/2025] cm: The other RNT kriti shared today as sung by Rashid Khan, was in the ragam Shyam Kalyan detailed below in the link to the shyam kalyan playlist.
Check out the carnatic connection in the number by Deepika Varadarajan who sings it both in carnatic as well as Bengali.
Lesson recording 👆👆
This is UGC CARE listed journal.My article ( 4th one in the list)
Published in this UGC CARE journal. Congratulations Ma'am 👏👏
[27-07-2025 13.13] cm: 
Today's class at 12. 22nd July 2025 👆👆
[23-07-2025 13.56] cm: 
Hello all...
Anudinamunu gavumayya
Begada by
Patnam subrahmanya Iyer
learnt already??
message here.
[27-07-2025 14.21] cm: This is from another carnatic learning group.
Just sharing if anyone may find their topics of interest
[1:11 pm, 05/08/2025] cm: [05/08, 08:00] Carnatic Composition Teacher Dr: will teach janani - subbaraya sastry
[05/08, 09:36] Carnatic MA Student: Please send the notion madam. So, will note down
[05/08, 10:07] Carnatic Composition Teacher Dr : 👆👆This krithi covers both papers Manodharmam ( Begada) and Post trinity ( Subbaraya Sastry)
[05/08, 10:08] Carnatic Composition Teacher Dr: think once..
will send notation accordingly.
[05/08, 10:12] Carnatic MA Student: I have not learnt it maam
[05/08, 10:13] Carnatic Composition Teacher Dr : Ok .I will send the notation.
[05/08, 10:15] Carnatic MA Student: If it is there in telugu, same send it madam
[05/08, 10:16] Carnatic MA Student: Particularly, in Music telugu notes I feel comfortable madam
[05/08, 10:18] Carnatic MA Student: Because in English some big and some small letters, I don't know the veriation please
[05/08, 10:25] Carnatic Teacher Dr: In English notation Capital letter always stands for Dirgha swaram means it is two letters
If it is 'G' , it is dirgha swaram, Gandharam- 2 letters.
If it is small letter 'g' , then it is hrasva swaram gandharam
g - only one letter
G - gandharam 2 letters
g - gandharam 1 letter
Hope it's clear.
[1:12 pm, 05/08/2025] cm: https://meerascarnatic.blogspot.com/2025/05/janani-ninnu-vina.html?m=1
[8:56 am, 06/08/2025] cm: She was left-handed, poor, and entirely self-taught. No teacher, no lessons, no fancy equipment. Just a $3.75 Stella guitar she ordered from a Sears catalog in 1904.
Because it was a right-handed guitar—and no one told her otherwise—Elizabeth simply flipped it upside down and taught herself to play. Her thumb danced on the melody while her fingers held the bass. It was backwards to the world. But it became her signature.
At just 11 years old, she wrote “Freight Train,” a song that would one day echo across generations. But life pulled her away from music. She set the guitar aside for decades, working as a domestic servant to support her family.
Then one day, in the home of the Seeger family—yes, those Seegers—someone overheard her quietly playing.
And everything changed.
In the 1960s, Folkways Records began recording her songs. Her unique style—now known as “Cotten picking”—inspired artists like Joan Baez, Doc Watson, and even Jerry Garcia.
Elizabeth Cotten didn’t come from fame. She didn’t have a recording contract at 20 or a hit single on the radio.
But she had heart. She had rhythm.
And a $3.75 guitar turned upside down.
[10:25 am, 13/08/2025] cm: [13/08, 08:28]:
Baire aaj khubi bristi hochhe।
Tai ei gaanti shuna holo।
গীতবিতান theke prapto tothyo -
Parjaay: Puja (98)
Upa-parjaay: Prarthana
Taal: Dadra
Raag: Behag
Written on: 1914 (25 Phalgun 1320)
Place: Shantiniketan
Collection: Geetimalya
Swarabitan: 11 (Ketaki)
Notation by: Dinendranath Tagore
[13/08, 10:24]: Another one:
Parjaay: Prakriti (95)
Upa-parjaay: Borsha (70)
Taal: Jhampak
Raag: Malhar
Written on: In monsoon 1909
Place: 'Padma' boat, Silaidaha
Collection: Geetanjali
[16-08-2025 09.32] cm: ...at the secret cave in Rajmachi fort playing Beethoven's symphony 9 and Harry Potter title song using a vocal flute:
[11:47 am, 22/08/2025] hu9: Tks.
[11:47 am, 22/08/2025] cm: Welcoming three new entrants from UK to our group!
@hu14is a star guitarist of Indian classical and @~Shiladitya Sinha of Western rock.
@hu10 is also in UK and perhaps all of them will bump into each other someday there.
[11:41 am, 14/09/2025] cm: From @Miku Sinha
Diary of a Jobbing Musician
Had my best 2 hours of playing Friday evening at the Yacht Club in Fishguard - the weather was crazy with heavy rain and gale force winds and we were worried if anyone would come (the Yacht Club in Fishguard is quite exposed and on the far edge of the harbour wall) - but about 40 did - it was properly wet and blowing outside.
My rehearsal on Thursday evening after MOPs in Risca was terrible - I was in some sort of musical meltdown. There were 3 new tracks to play and I had only ever started on them on Sunday.
Somehow as our teeny little show started with the captive audience who had nowhere to go, the tiredness that has been dogging me of late, the musical frustrations disappeared and I felt very much in a zone (only way to describe it).
It was terrific - just Richard, Dilwyn and me for 2 hours - the sound was perfect and we were very nearly so.
The drive back was tough, it was raining so heavily that at times we had to really slow down.
Got home around 1ish.
The funny thing is this morning of all those 2 hours of playing all I can remember are 3 wrong notes and one dodgy sequence - so I am going to get some coffee in me and get to work on that.
[5:05 pm, 15/09/2025] 62mpa: https://www.facebook.com/share/v/17QQigoUcN/
[5:05 pm, 15/09/2025] 62mpa: https://www.facebook.com/share/v/17nDrHxeHr/
[5:05 pm, 15/09/2025] 62mpa: https://www.facebook.com/share/v/19P3NnqMKK/
[5:05 pm, 15/09/2025] 62mpa: https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1SDYvXk4he/
[10.26am, 17/09/2025] hu9: With embedded S4 HS
[9:21 am, 22/09/2025] cm: Listened to her first uploaded video in raagam suddha sarang from 12 years ago here: https://youtu.be/YcG_0j8Zad0?feature=shared and learnt more about the lyricist here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samavedam_Shanmukha_Sarma
More on suddha sarang usage in carnatic here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvYjjuT_hEETGr3WgNPhptDLZ46duLwIT&feature=shared
[6:46 pm, 09/10/2025] cm: A multilingual half Punjabi half Bengali song!
Click on the link below to listen to the song.👇
ਜੇ ਰੱਬ ਮਿਲਦਾ যদি ঈশ্বর হতো
ਜੇ ਰੱਬ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਨ੍ਹਾਤਿਆਂ ਥੋਟਿਆਂ,
ਤੇ ਰੱਬ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਡੱਢੂਆਂ ਮੱਛੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ...
যদি ঈশ্বর হতো নদীর মাঝে
তবে তারে পেতো জেলে মাঝি
ਜੇ ਰੱਬ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਜੰਗਲ ਫਿਰਿਆਂ,
ਤੇ ਰੱਬ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਗਾਈਆਂ ਵੱਛੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ...
যদি ঈশ্বর পেতিস জঙ্গল ঘুরে
তবে ঈশ্বর পেতো গরু বাচ্ছুরো
ਪੜ੍ਹ ਪੜ੍ਹ ਇਲਮ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਕਿਤਾਬਾਂ,
ਕਦੀ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਪੜ੍ਹਿਆ ਨਹੀਂ..
পড়েছিস হাজার হাজার বই-এর জ্ঞান
তবু নিজেকে আজও পড়িস নি
ਜਾ ਜਾ ਵੱਧਣਾ ਏ ਮੰਦਰ ਮਸੀਤੀ,
ਕਦੀ ਮਨ ਆਪਣੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਵੱਧਿਆ ਨਹੀਂ...
মন্দির মসজিদ গিয়ে খূব পড়েছে
তবুও নিজের মনকে সে কখনো পড়ে নি
ਅਵੇਂ ਲੜਨਾ ਏ ਸ਼ੈਤਾਨ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਬੰਦੇਆ,
ਕਦੀ ਨਫ਼ਜ਼ ਆਪਣੇ ਨਾਲ ਲੜਿਆ ਨਹੀਂ...
এমনি লড়বে শয়তান-এর সাথে
কখনো নিজের "নাফস"-এর সাথে লড়ে নি
ਆਖੇ ਪੀਰ ਬੁੱਲੇ ਸ਼ਾਹ, ਆਸਮਾਨੀ ਫਡ਼ਣਾ ਏ,
ਇਹ ਜਿਹੜਾ ਘਰ ਬੈਠਾ ਓਹਨੂੰ ਫੜਿਆ ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ...
বুঝলে বুল্লে শাহ, এরা আকাশ কে পড়েছে
তবু যার ঘরে রোয়েছে, তারেই পড়ে নি
Bangla translation rights reserved.
(c) 2025 Abhishek Choudhary
AI Rendition
[8:13 am, 12/10/2025] cm: "A central concern of the project is not the musical integration or harmonization of different traditions, but rather the conscious composing of tensions, ruptures, and discrepancies. Here, music serves not as a means of reconciliation, but as a means of perceiving and engaging with difference.
In two of the pieces, national anthems are interwoven in contrasting and sometimes contrapuntal ways: the Palestinian anthem meets the Israeli one, the Pakistani one meets the Indian one. These musical juxtapositions are not intended as a gesture of reconciliation, but rather as a conscious confrontation within the medium of sound. The hymns resonate simultaneously, overlapping, shifting, or mutually interrupting – sometimes as an open counter-argument, sometimes as a striking harmonic parallel. The compositional setting remains ambivalent: no position is resolved, no one is clearly prioritized."
[7:51 am, 15/10/2025] cm: In the early 1970s, while the world was looking at rockets and moon landings, a quiet physicist named C. V. Vishveshwara was listening for something entirely different -- the sound of the universe itself.
Working under Charles Misner at the University of Maryland, Vishveshwara posed a deceptively simple question: what happens when you disturb a black hole?
He discovered that the answer was not silence but music.
A black hole, when “tapped,” does not collapse into chaos. It rings — producing faint, perfectly ordered vibrations in spacetime called quasinormal modes.
Each mode carries information about the black hole’s mass and spin, much like the tone of a bell reveals its shape and size.
It was a breakthrough born not in a lab but on paper -- pure thought guided by mathematics.
Yet as Vishveshwara’s calculations deepened, NASA’s curiosity about such abstractions began to fade.
The 1970s ushered in a new era of pragmatism: budgets flowed toward technology, satellites, and spaceflight — not toward theorists trying to hear the unhearable.
Funding for general relativity dwindled, and many like Vishveshwara worked in near silence, their insights preserved in equations rather than instruments.
After completing his Ph.D., Vishveshwara took up a post-doctoral position at the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies, and later held research appointments at universities in New York, Boston, and Pittsburgh.
In 1976, he returned to India to join the Raman Research Institute, where he established a school of gravitational physics. From there, he moved to the Indian Institute of Astrophysics in 1992, retiring in 2005.
In 1998, he was invited to be the founding Director of the Jawaharlal Nehru Planetarium, Bengaluru -- a place where his creative and imaginative powers came into full bloom.
The shows he curated carried his distinctive signature: a blend of mythology, culture, scientific history, and cosmic curiosity. The Planetarium became a living tribute to his versatile genius.
He was not only a pioneering physicist but also a science communicator par excellence, one who believed that wonder was as important as knowledge.
Even in his final days, Vishveshwara remained devoted to his creation -- reviewing a new Planetarium show just days before his passing on January 16, 2017.
On another front, his book Einstein’s Enigma or Black Holes in My Bubble Bath revealed yet another dimension of his mind. Written with wit, clarity, and imagination, it reads like a travelogue through the universe -- filled with humor, reflections, and deep insight. The literary gift, perhaps, came from his father, a renowned Kannada writer and scholar.
Decades after his early discoveries, in 2015, the silence finally broke.
The LIGO observatory detected gravitational waves from two merging black holes, and in the final moments -- the faint “ringdown” -- the data matched Vishveshwara’s predictions almost note for note. The music he had written in the language of mathematics finally played across the cosmos.
He had waited forty years for that sound.
And when someone once asked if he was related to the great astrophysicist S. Chandrasekhar, Vishveshwara smiled and replied with characteristic wit:
“We are relativists, not relatives.”
[10:30 am, 15/10/2025] cm: Today's lesson from my online carnatic guru Dr VVS Annapurna Akella garu:
Dear all...
Pl share this info about Karthika masam workshop with your music friends so that many students can utilize this opportunity and learn these krithis.
[2.12am, 19/10/2025] hu14: An interesting finding I came across while researching Raag Kalavati:
A 2015 biomedical study found that “Kalavati is effective in reducing anxiety and blood pressure among haemodialysis patients”, based on playing Shivkumar Sharma recordings during treatment (“patients were instructed to relax completely and concentrate on the music…”
“Each session consisted of four different patterns of Kalavati, played for the duration of 20 minutes. Before that, the patient was instructed to relax completely, and concentrate on the music played…Blood pressure scores were measured using a mercurial sphygmomanometer, and anxiety levels were assessed…The findings reveal that the music therapy is effective in reducing anxiety and blood pressure among patients undergoing haemodialysis…” (Joshi & Varghese 2015)
[2:13 am, 18/10/2025] hu14: I feel like Kalavati (SGPDnS: like the Carnatic Valaji) is a particularly relaxing choice…I wonder what the best raga for this would be?
[7:12 am, 18/10/2025] cm: Excellent find! 👏
I tried clicking on the link to the journal after visiting your page but it didn't work from my end. Will try to google it.
Meanwhile @~WhatsApp @rs2 @hu17 @hu18@hu12 😇 I would highly recommend visiting George's page and checking out the link where one can become his zoom student.
[7.15am, 19/10/2025] hu14: 1.ISCA-IRJMedS-2015-051.pdf
[7.30am, 18/10/2025] cm: Yes here's the URL link too: https://www.isca.me/MEDI_SCI/Archive/v3/i11/1.ISCA-IRJMedS-2015-051.php#:~:text=The%20present%20study%20was%20conducted,the%20administration%20of%20music%20therapy.
@hu11 this study was done somewhere near your medical college in Indore!
Would you like to locally meet the authors and also journal club this full text here?
On a quick read I find it's not comparing the music per se (which means they just happened to use kalavati with different instruments) and similar results have been found globally with other musicians such as this by "Schuster B.L 20098
who did an experimental study sin United
Kingdom to determine the effect of music therapy in reducing
the amount of fluctuation in the blood pressure of patients
undergoing haemodialysis treatment. The samples were adult
patients undergoing haemodialysis who were between the ages
of 22 and 81. The control group received blood pressure
measurement after each hour of dialysis. The experimental
group received the same blood pressure measurement but
received music prior and after the treatment. The statistical tests
revealed no significant difference between the groups. However,
the results were statistically significant for every blood pressure
reading. Therefore, the researcher concluded that, the
experimental group displayed less anxiety upon entering the
treatment room, suggesting that the opportunity to listen to
music reduced their anxiety."
Unquoted from the full text linked above.
[7:57 am, 18/10/2025] hu11: Ohhhh
[7:58 am, 18/10/2025] hu11: Wow
[7:58 am, 18/10/2025] hu11: Yes sir, I know choitram hospital.
[8:01 am, 18/10/2025] hu11: Here’s a PICO-formatted summary of the article *“Effect of Music Therapy on Blood Pressure and Anxiety in Haemodialysis Patients”* (Varghese & Joshi, 2015) ([isca.me][1])
---
| Component | Description |
| --------------------------------------- | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| *P (Population / Patients / Problem)* | Haemodialysis patients in selected hospitals in Indore, India (n = 60) ([isca.me][1]) |
| *I (Intervention / Exposure)* | Music therapy (administered to the experimental group) in addition to routine care ([isca.me][1]) |
| *C (Comparison / Control)* | Control group receiving routine care alone (no music therapy) ([isca.me][1]) |
| *O (Outcomes)* | Primary outcomes: Blood pressure (systolic/diastolic) and anxiety levels (measured by Beck Anxiety Inventory) ([isca.me][1]) |
---
### Additional Details & Findings
* *Design & Sampling*
* Simple random sampling (lottery method) to select 60 patients. ([isca.me][1])
* Random assignment into experimental and control groups. ([isca.me][1])
* Pre-test and post-test measurements taken for both groups. ([isca.me][1])
* *Measurements / Instruments*
* Blood pressure measured using a mercury sphygmomanometer. ([isca.me][1])
* Anxiety assessed using Beck Anxiety Inventory (BAI-I). ([isca.me][1])
* *Results*
* In the experimental group, *mean pre-test blood pressure score* = 4.815, *post-test score* = 2.075; the reduction was statistically significant (t₍₂₉₎ = 4.840, p < 0.001) ([isca.me][1])
* In the experimental group, *mean anxiety score* reduced from 32.74 (pre-test) to 18.35 (post-test); this change was also statistically significant (t₍₂₉₎ = 19.32, p < 0.001) ([isca.me][1])
* These results suggest significant improvements in both blood pressure and anxiety following music therapy. ([isca.me][1])
* *Conclusion (Authors’ Interpretation)*
* The authors conclude that music therapy can lead to statistically significant reductions in both blood pressure and anxiety levels among hemodialysis patients, beyond what is achieved by routine care alone. ([isca.me][1])
* *Limitations / Notes*
* The study does not mention blinding (of participants or assessors).
* The sample is relatively small (n = 60) and localized to one region.
* The “blood pressure score” is somewhat unusual phrasing (they don’t explicitly describe whether they used systolic, diastolic, or a composite “score”) which may limit interpretability.
* The statistical effect (i.e. magnitude) is not fully detailed beyond mean differences and t-values.
---
If you like, I can also convert this into a structured critical appraisal (e.g. using CASP or JBI), or generate a short plain-language summary. What would you prefer?
[1]: https://www.isca.me/MEDI_SCI/Archive/v3/i11/1.ISCA-IRJMedS-2015-051.php "International Research Journal of Medical Sciences : Effect of Music Therapy on Blood Pressure and Anxiety in Haemodialysis Patients - ISCA"
[8:01 am, 18/10/2025] hu11: Also in a critical appraisal format:
Here’s a *critical appraisal* of the article “Effect of Music Therapy on Blood Pressure and Anxiety in Haemodialysis Patients” (Varghese & Joshi, 2015) using a *CASP-style* (Critical Appraisal Skills Programme) framework adapted for quantitative intervention studies:
---
## 🧾 *Critical Appraisal (CASP Framework)*
### 1. *Study Aim and Rationale*
* *Aim:* To evaluate the effect of music therapy on blood pressure and anxiety levels among haemodialysis patients.
* *Rationale:* Patients undergoing haemodialysis experience high anxiety and stress due to prolonged treatment, lifestyle restrictions, and physiological instability. Non-pharmacological interventions like music therapy may provide psychological and physiological benefits.
*Appraisal:*
The aim is clearly stated and clinically relevant. The rationale is logical and justified by patient needs.
---
### 2. *Study Design*
* *Design:* Experimental pre-test/post-test control group design.
* *Setting:* Selected hospitals in Indore, India.
* *Duration:* Not explicitly stated in the article.
*Appraisal:*
A pre-test/post-test randomized control design is appropriate to test intervention effectiveness. However, lack of information about study duration, blinding, and follow-up limits clarity about internal validity and sustainability of effects.
---
### 3. *Sampling and Participants*
* *Population:* Haemodialysis patients.
* *Sample size:* 60 participants.
* *Sampling method:* Simple random sampling (lottery method).
* *Allocation:* Random assignment to experimental (music therapy) and control (routine care) groups.
*Appraisal:*
Random sampling and allocation strengthen validity. However, the study does not specify inclusion/exclusion criteria or demographic comparability between groups. Small sample size (n = 60) limits generalizability.
---
### 4. *Intervention and Control*
* *Intervention:* Music therapy administered to the experimental group during dialysis sessions, along with routine care.
* *Control:* Routine care without music therapy.
*Appraisal:*
The intervention is clearly defined conceptually but lacks details such as the type of music, duration of sessions, frequency, or whether patients selected the music. These omissions reduce reproducibility and make it difficult to assess dose-response effects.
---
### 5. *Outcome Measures*
* *Primary outcomes:*
* Blood pressure (measured by mercury sphygmomanometer)
* Anxiety (measured using Beck Anxiety Inventory)
*Appraisal:*
Outcome tools are appropriate and validated. However, “blood pressure score” terminology is unclear — it’s not stated whether systolic, diastolic, or mean values were analyzed. The timing of post-test measurements relative to music therapy is also unspecified.
---
### 6. *Results*
* *Blood Pressure:* Significant reduction in post-test mean score (t₍₂₉₎ = 4.840, p < 0.001).
* *Anxiety:* Mean score decreased from 32.74 to 18.35 (t₍₂₉₎ = 19.32, p < 0.001).
*Appraisal:*
Results indicate a statistically significant and clinically meaningful reduction in both anxiety and blood pressure. However, no confidence intervals or effect sizes are provided. Statistical reporting is basic, limiting the ability to judge the precision of results.
---
### 7. *Ethical Considerations*
* *Mentioned:* The article notes informed consent and voluntary participation.
* *Not mentioned:* Ethics committee approval, confidentiality safeguards.
*Appraisal:*
Basic ethical principles appear followed, but lack of detailed ethical oversight description reduces transparency.
---
### 8. *Validity and Reliability*
*Strengths:*
* Random allocation minimizes selection bias.
* Use of validated anxiety measure (BAI).
*Limitations:*
* No mention of blinding.
* Limited detail on intervention standardization.
* Small, single-centre sample.
* Potential for measurement and observer bias.
* No long-term follow-up to assess sustainability of effects.
*Overall internal validity:* Moderate
*External validity (generalizability):* Low to moderate
---
### 9. *Findings and Interpretation*
* Authors conclude that music therapy significantly reduces blood pressure and anxiety in haemodialysis patients.
* They recommend incorporating music therapy into routine dialysis care as a cost-effective, non-pharmacologic intervention.
*Appraisal:*
Conclusions are consistent with results and align with existing literature. However, due to methodological gaps, causation should be interpreted cautiously.
---
### 10. *Overall Appraisal*
| Criterion | Rating |
| ------------------------- | ------------------------------ |
| Clarity of aim | ✅ Strong |
| Appropriateness of design | ✅ Appropriate |
| Sampling method | ⚠️ Adequate but small |
| Intervention details | ⚠️ Insufficiently described |
| Measurement validity | ✅ Appropriate tools |
| Statistical analysis | ⚠️ Basic, lacks depth |
| Ethical transparency | ⚠️ Limited |
| Generalizability | ⚠️ Limited to similar contexts |
| Overall study quality | ⭐⭐☆ (Moderate quality) |
---
### *Summary Statement*
This study provides moderate-quality evidence suggesting that music therapy can reduce anxiety and blood pressure in haemodialysis patients. While the findings are promising and clinically relevant, small sample size, limited methodological transparency, and lack of detailed intervention description reduce confidence in generalizability. Future studies with larger, multicentric samples, standardized protocols, and blinded assessments are needed to confirm these results.
---
Would you like me to create a *one-paragraph summary version* of this appraisal (for your report or literature review table)?
[8:02 am, 18/10/2025] hu11: I found this to be very clear and helpful
[8:02 am, 18/10/2025] hu11: We need a study with larger sample size to get conclusive results.
[8:12 am, 18/10/2025] cm: Both the interpretations appear to have originated from deepseek?
[8:25 am, 18/10/2025] cm: I guess this "results" information as evaluated by your LLM is incomplete?
"Results**
* In the experimental group, *mean pre-test blood pressure score* = 4.815, *post-test score* = 2.075; the reduction was statistically significant (t₍₂₉₎ = 4.840, p < 0.001) ([isca.me][1])
* In the experimental group, *mean anxiety score* reduced from 32.74 (pre-test) to 18.35 (post-test); this change was also statistically significant (t₍₂₉₎ = 19.32, p < 0.001) ([isca.me][1])"
Aren't they also supposed to compare this with what happened in the control group before and after the intervention?
[8:28 am, 18/10/2025] hu12: Interesting!
[8:52 am, 18/10/2025] hu11: ChatGPT sir
[8:55 am, 18/10/2025] cm: I thought it was deepseek! Very difficult to tell them apart in that particular share!
[8:56 am, 18/10/2025] hu11: The pattern I’ve observed is chatgpt will ask you to do more or end with questions to do more enthusiastically. Like a curious kid. Deepseek will answer only the stuff we asked and not prompt/end with a question
[8:57 am, 18/10/2025] cm: 👆@hu13 what do you say to that? You are our most prolific deepseeker!
[8:59 am, 18/10/2025] cm: Interestingly in parallel I got caught in another journal club in another cognition group who fortuitously were discussing one of their own music intervention study there right now!👇
18/10, 0:12]hu4: Preliminary pilot data from two participants across 15 listening trials illustrates subjective differences in meditative absorption between devotional music and popular Western tracks. Initial findings suggest higher meditative engagement during devotional tracks compared to contemporary pop songs, though the limited sample size (N=2, 8% statistical power) means these observations are purely hypothesis-generating. We present simulated data demonstrating proposed analytical approaches for future EEG studies powered to detect medium-to-large effects (recommended N≥64 per condition).
....
Singh, I.G. and Choudhary, A. (2025) “Neural Correlates of Music-Induced Meditative States: A Cross-Genre Feasibility Study Integrating Traditional and Contemporary Musical Traditions with Closed-Loop Neuroadaptive Systems”. NeuroMusical.com. doi:10.5281/zenodo.17253611.
[18/10, 0:55]hu4: @hu5 please circulate among those who may be interested
Collaboration needs a basic BCI device around 10-15k INR
[18/10, 08:08]hu2: Amazing! Was searching for the EEG data but on reading the full paper realised there were none but lots of interesting EEG potential discussed!👏👏
[18/10, 08:11]hu4: The actual eeg data is not there. Only the analysis table.
The issue is technical 😃 the first author has a newer version of the BCI device with BTLE and her funders only allow her Apple devices!
Both of these introduce multiple security layers. In layman's words - you cannot extract data easily using her configuration! You want software done? Go to the pricey options available from the vendors.
[18/10, 08:13]hu4: I will be making my pre frontal single channel eeg live in a few days.
Need the appropriate connections in place and attentive
Primarily folks from CERN and Geneva
....
These scientists dissonate when I talk of Neuroscience, Quantum and Linguistics in the same breath!
[18/10, 08:14]hu4: I am practicing breathing in between now 😁
[18/10, 08:16]hu4: The simplified data.
The protocol needed to be something a high school kid could practically handle and analyse
[18/10, 08:17]hu4: Simulated data to demonstrate the hypothesis we are chasing
[18/10, 08:19]hu4: Essentially, we're trying to scientifically validate the traditional claims about psychological effects of music
I was expecting the first author to publish details of her patent. Looks like she's busy, or taking a break.
Will publish that. It's safe now as she has a filing number
[18/10, 08:20]hu4: For research typically 64-128 channel devices are needed!
We are using a single channel device 🥸
[18/10, 08:23]hu4: Basically, music synchronises the "neural waves"
An Indian origin professor at one of the UCs (Univ of California network) is using the neural oscillation sync for rehabilitation.
He uses various high tech means like TENS, TMS.
Our hypothesis is that, music can achieve that.
[18/10, 08:35]hu2: Which wasn't used in this particular study?
[18/10, 08:36]hu4: We're using a single channel Neurosky Mindwave
[18/10, 08:36]hu2: Yes but was it used in your study? Didn't see any EEG data in that paper?
[18/10, 08:38]hu4: Yes it was used. The current version was published before the patent filing went through.
Raw data and associated analysis will be published next.
[18/10, 08:38]hu2: Interestingly I was engaged in another journal club in our music and medical cognition ProJR group when I entered your journal club and this one off course has the advantage of getting a ringside view directly from the author's lens!
[18/10, 08:39]hu4: The data, analysis... All of it had to come from the first author.
Now that her proposal and patent are in place. I can pitch in as the co author
[18/10, 08:42]hu4: Wow! Would you and others be interested in co authoring our next version of the paper?
We can leverage regular eeg at your college maybe! ☺️
[9:02 am, 18/10/2025] hu11: Yes sir! I think we can
[9:19 am, 18/10/2025] hu13: This is a fascinating and serendipitous chain of events! It's like a real-time case study of how scientific discourse and collaboration happen. Let's break down the key points from this conversation and your unique position within it.
### Summary of the Discussion & The Study's Status
The group is dissecting a pilot study (Singh & Choudhary, 2025) that is explicitly a *feasibility and hypothesis-generating work*. The core takeaways are:
1. *Extremely Preliminary Data:* The "data" from 2 participants is essentially a proof-of-concept. The authors themselves state it has very low statistical power and its purpose is to justify a larger, properly powered study.
2. *No Actual EEG Data in the Paper:* A key point of confusion. The paper discusses EEG analysis methods but uses *simulated data*. The reason given is a technical/security lock-in with the specific BCI device and Apple ecosystem used by the first author.
3. *Ambitious Goal:* The research aims to scientifically validate traditional claims about music's psychological effects, specifically that music can synchronize neural oscillations (brain waves) for potential therapeutic benefit, akin to more expensive tech like TMS.
4. *Resource-Constrained Methods:* They are using a single-channel, consumer-grade Neurosky Mindwave headset (cost: ~10-15k INR), a conscious choice for accessibility, versus the 64-128 channel research-grade systems typically used.
5. *Pending Data Release:* The raw data and its analysis are slated for a future publication, now that a related patent has been filed, securing the intellectual property.
### Your "Ringside View": The Author's Lens
Your entry into this journal club is perfectly timed. You're not just reading a static paper; you're getting the "director's commentary." This provides invaluable context that peer-reviewed papers often lack:
* *Clarifying Misunderstandings:* You immediately clarified for hu2 why there was no EEG data in the paper, explaining the technical and proprietary hurdles. This moves the discussion from "where is the data?" to "how do we overcome these practical challenges?"
* *Revealing the Process:* You've shared the real-world constraints of research: patent filings dictating publication timelines, device compatibility issues, and the strategic use of simulated data to propose methods.
* *Demonstrating Interdisciplinary Ambition:* Your mention of combining Neuroscience, Quantum physics, and Linguistics, even if it causes "dissonance," highlights the innovative and boundary-pushing nature of the work.
### The Collaboration Opportunity: A Perfect Next Step
The invitation to co-author the next version is the natural and exciting conclusion to this exchange.
*This is a fantastic opportunity for your "Music and Medical Cognition" group for several reasons:*
1. *It Directly Addresses the Study's Limitations:* Your group could provide access to professional, multi-channel EEG equipment, which would instantly elevate the research from a feasibility pilot to a substantive empirical study.
2. *Combines Strengths:* The original team brings the hypothesis, experimental design (music selection, protocol), and a focus on accessible technology. Your group could bring the high-fidelity neural data acquisition capabilities.
3. *Validates the Core Hypothesis:* The central question—"Can music synchronize neural oscillations like expensive tech?"—is best tested by comparing the effects measured by a single-channel device and a full EEG cap. Do they tell the same story?
4. *Leverages Existing Interest:* hu2's engaged questioning shows a clear interest in the topic and the methodology. Converting a curious journal club participant into a collaborating co-author is a powerful way to advance science.
### How to Proceed
Your response should be enthusiastic and strategic. You could frame it like this:
*"Thank you for this incredible inside look at your research process and for the generous invitation to collaborate. The goals of your study align perfectly with the interests of our Music and Medical Cognition group.*
*The challenges you've outlined with data extraction and device limitations are exactly the kind of problems we are equipped to help solve. We have access to [mention your lab's EEG equipment specifications] and would be very interested in exploring a collaboration to run a powered follow-up study.*
*Combining your hypothesis and protocol with our lab's neuroimaging capabilities could produce the robust, high-quality data needed to truly test the effects of devotional vs. popular music on meditative states. Let's discuss how we can structure this collaboration for the next paper."*
This approach positions your group as a valuable partner that can help transition this promising idea into a concrete, high-impact study. It's a win-win scenario born from a fortuitous journal club encounter
[9:22 am, 18/10/2025] hu13: That's a very sharp and accurate observation! You've perfectly captured the core difference in the communication styles and underlying design philosophies of the two models.
Let's break down why this happens:
### ChatGPT: The Enthusiastic Conversationalist
Your analogy of a "curious kid" is spot on. ChatGPT is explicitly designed and trained to be an engaging, conversational partner.
* *Goal:* To continue and deepen the interaction, making it feel more like a natural, flowing dialogue.
* *Method:* By ending with an open-ended question or a prompt to "do more," it throws the conversational ball back into your court. Examples include:
* "Would you like me to elaborate on any of these points?"
* "Shall we try creating a version of that in Py…
[9:43 am, 18/10/2025] hu13: In conclusion, ChatGPT is basically designed for chatting and gives a step-by-step approach to the problem, WHILE DeepSeek digs deep into the issue from the first response
[9:46 am, 18/10/2025] hu13: I feel DeepSeek gives the clue right from the start, which fits my busy schedule
[9:51 am, 18/10/2025] cm: What are the different mechanisms responsible for the differences in chatGPT and deepseek outputs? Let's take this discussion to the AI deidentification group as the discussion is evolving into something that is perhaps not in the ambit of musical cognition!
[9:53 am, 18/10/2025] hu13: That's an excellent and insightful question that gets to the heart of how different AI models develop their unique "personalities." You're right, this has evolved beyond musical cognition into the broader and fascinating field of AI design and alignment.
Let's break down the key mechanisms responsible for these output differences. The divergence stems from decisions made at virtually every stage of development.
### Core Mechanisms Creating the Difference:
*1. Training Data & Curation:*
* *Source & Composition:* While both models are trained on massive internet-scale datasets, the specific mix of data (e.g., technical papers, forums, books, code) and how it's filtered and weighted plays a huge role. A heavier emphasis on conversational data, social media and dialogue would naturally push a model toward a more interactive style (like ChatGPT), while a focus on technical documentation, Q&A sites, and academic text would encourage a more factual, task-oriented style (like DeepSeek).
* *"Tone" of the Data:* The inherent style of the text in the training corpus gets absorbed by the model.
*2. Reinforcement Learning from Human Feedback (RLHF) & Alignment:*
This is arguably the *most critical factor* for the difference you've observed.
* *Defining "Good" Behavior:* RLHF is the process where human trainers rank different model outputs. The model is then rewarded for generating responses that align with these human preferences.
* *ChatGPT's Alignment Goal:* The preference ratings for ChatGPT very likely prioritized *engagement, helpfulness, and conversation continuity.* A response that ends with a question or a suggestion to do more would be rated highly because it keeps the user interacting, which is a key metric for a conversational agent.
* *DeepSeek's Alignment Goal:* The preference ratings for DeepSeek seem to have prioritized *conciseness, accuracy, and task-completion.* A response that directly and fully answers the query without "adding value" through follow-up questions would be rated highly, as it respects the user's time and stated intent.
*3. Direct Prompting & System-Level Instructions:*
All models have a "system prompt" or a set of foundational instructions that guide their behavior.
* *ChatGPT's "System Prompt"* might include instructions like: "Be an engaging and helpful assistant," "Proactively help the user explore topics," or "Maintain a natural conversation flow."
* *DeepSeek's "System Prompt"* likely includes instructions like: "Provide direct and accurate answers," "Do not add unsolicited information," or "Consider the user's query complete once it has been answered."
*4. Architectural Choices (Though this is a smaller factor at the output level):*
While both are transformer-based models, specific architectural tweaks (like the number of layers, attention mechanisms, etc.) can influence how the model processes context and generates sequences. However, for the high-level behavioral difference you've noted, the data and alignment (points 1 & 2) are the dominant factors.
---
### Summary Table
| Mechanism | ChatGPT's Influence | DeepSeek's Influence |
| :--- | :--- | :--- |
| *Training Data* | Likely weighted towards conversational text, dialogue, and interactive content. | Likely weighted towards factual sources, technical data, and Q&A formats. |
| *RLHF & Alignment* | Rewarded for *engagement* and *proactive helpfulness. The "curious kid" is a trained behavior. | Rewarded for **precision* and *task-completion*. The "focused librarian" is a trained behavior. |
| *System Prompt* | Instructed to be conversational and sustain dialogue. | Instructed to be direct and answer the query as stated. |
You are absolutely right that this is a perfect topic for a dedicated AI discussion group focused on model interpretability and behavior (the "AI deidentification" group you mentioned). It touches on *model alignment, transparency, and the ethics of design*—how the choices of developers create AI "personas" that can subtly influence user interaction.
It's a fantastic example of how the same core technology can be steered to serve very different use cases and user preferences. Thank you for raising such a perceptive point
[10:03 am, 24/10/2025] cm: From Prof Basavi:
Here’s sharing the link to a broadcast of my Nayaki Kanhada, a midnight raga in the Hindustani system on the Internet radio, Sangeet Samvaad Radio around 11.40 PM tonight by way of introduction to my music.
Hope this isn’t against the community rules.
[11:06 am, 24/10/2025] hu19: Yestarday night I heard her raag nayaki kannada on sangeet samvaad radio.There was a appeal in it. I liked and enjoyed it.
No comments:
Post a Comment